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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 03:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Exmaple Core wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Too many games are balanced on the concept of free vehicles.This is what make trying to make Dust 514 vehicles feel just 'right' extraordinarily difficult because they don't rain from the sky for free. Someone paid for those tanks, as does everything that tank can kill.
This is why making the tank too good is considerably a bad thing because it can negate everyone's else's investments in both skill points in isk quickly to the point that the infantry interplay is non existent. Which is the current industry standard, From the call of duty expansion pack multiplayer games to halo, to unreal, to even more recently Plane Side 2 included. Earlier builds such as E3 had tanks that was designed stats wise on this model almost and they where largely obscurely very dangerous racking up nearly up to 40-70 kills by its lonesome. Matches quickly digested down to who can deploy the most tanks first and fastest. Once on field and one side did not have sufficient amount of HAVs on the field the match was by and large over. People couldn't spawn, people could call in other vehicles and of course the team insufficient of tanks couldn't call orbitals either to which might I add the old age tanks laughed off.
During this age and time CCP Blam asserted that he believed that HAVs did not require infantry support, this drew quite a bit of ire from the infantry community at the time.
As Dust 514 continued to develop the HAV nerfs began to roll in one after the other to the point its now the reverse being in play. Tanks are not worth the sufficient amount of isk and sp investments to be effective on the field. While the HAVs on the edge its vehicles like the standard dropship that have seem to fallen off the table in terms of isk per power projection. However not all is lost, its possible to dial it back a bit make the vehicles more worth their costs.
As it stands now Team Kong, consisting of the likes of CCP Wolfman and CCP Remnant are in charge of everything you touch on the battlefield from your controllers to each gun and suit, to have them in charge of vehicles as well is an extraordinarily smart move as it gets the entire picture singing the same song. 1.5 will feature the first set of massive revisions with subsequent patches adding back in all that was nuked out of existence in 1.5. I agree with everything he said. wbu guys?
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on... |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 03:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on...
"True AV" is a railgun turret on a vehicle. Not a handheld weapon.
You can't just have vehicles fighting vehicles or it'll end up being 'who can field the most tanks'. There needs to be a powerful handheld Anti-Armor tool with obvious drawbacks, which the Forge and Swarms are meant to fill. They create a nice rock-paper-scissors flow to battle, where vehicles kill infantry, infantry kill AV, and AV kill vehicles. Vehicles can kill vehicles and infantry can kill infantry, and AV can kill AV (with sidearms anyway), so 'tie' situations also end in decent combat. You cannot just relegate the role of 'anti X' to the X in question. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 03:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on...
"True AV" is a railgun turret on a vehicle. Not a handheld weapon. You can't just have vehicles fighting vehicles or it'll end up being 'who can field the most tanks'. There needs to be a powerful handheld Anti-Armor tool with obvious drawbacks, which the Forge and Swarms are meant to fill. They create a nice rock-paper-scissors flow to battle, where vehicles kill infantry, infantry kill AV, and AV kill vehicles. Vehicles can kill vehicles and infantry can kill infantry, and AV can kill AV (with sidearms anyway), so 'tie' situations also end in decent combat. You cannot just relegate the role of 'anti X' to the X in question. You just want one of the easiest crutches ever put into any game so you could solo tanks, instead of letting us duke it out away from infantry. The best counter to a tank should be another tank.
I don't want a 'crutch' but unlike you, I understand the need for balance. If the only counter to a tank was another tank, what happens when only one team in a public match has a tank? What about a full six man squad, all with tanks? There needs to be an infantry tool that has a reasonable chance to deal damage to vehicles, whether they be HAV LAV or Dropship. The best counter to a tank should be another tank, but if that is the ONLY counter, then the game will devolve back to the days of Sagaris's, where all that mattered was who had Marauders unlocked.
Furthermore, I question this 'duke it out away from infantry' thing. Where will you fight? The maps are but so large. What will you do once there are no enemy tanks to fight? Who will stop you if the Forge and Swarm are relegated to being useless? |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 04:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on...
"True AV" is a railgun turret on a vehicle. Not a handheld weapon. You can't just have vehicles fighting vehicles or it'll end up being 'who can field the most tanks'. There needs to be a powerful handheld Anti-Armor tool with obvious drawbacks, which the Forge and Swarms are meant to fill. They create a nice rock-paper-scissors flow to battle, where vehicles kill infantry, infantry kill AV, and AV kill vehicles. Vehicles can kill vehicles and infantry can kill infantry, and AV can kill AV (with sidearms anyway), so 'tie' situations also end in decent combat. You cannot just relegate the role of 'anti X' to the X in question. except that doesnt work anymore. Forges are used as anti infantry weapons along with side arms and swarms can be used on commando's to fight AV by fitting an AR. Now its Tanks > infantry / AV > Tanks / AV > Infantry
Commandos sacrifice they're ability to be anything but their gun, correct? With the low number of slots and the bonuses of the suit, the only thing to put in them would be HP boosting modules. When more modules come out, this will be more apparent. It also sacrifices grenades, so it cannot field AV or AI grenades.
As for the Forge Gun, I believe firmly that if a round poses a threat to a Heavily Armored Vehicle, it should punch a hole straight through a man. I am not, however, sure how to alleviate the issue of Forge guns on Infantry, as it does seem a tad prevalent. They need to use what they have to kill you, so it doesn't seem to unfair. The biggest issue I see is Drop Uplinks on rooftops. Maybe preventing Heavy class suits from using Uplinks would fix this to a large degree. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 04:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Commandos sacrifice they're ability to be anything but their gun, correct? With the low number of slots and the bonuses of the suit, the only thing to put in them would be HP boosting modules. When more modules come out, this will be more apparent. It also sacrifices grenades, so it cannot field AV or AI grenades.
As for the Forge Gun, I believe firmly that if a round poses a threat to a Heavily Armored Vehicle, it should punch a hole straight through a man. I am not, however, sure how to alleviate the issue of Forge guns on Infantry, as it does seem a tad prevalent. They need to use what they have to kill you, so it doesn't seem to unfair. The biggest issue I see is Drop Uplinks on rooftops. Maybe preventing Heavy class suits from using Uplinks would fix this to a large degree.
Even just commando's on the roof with a hive, sniper and swarms then. Forges are the bigger problem obviouslly though
Remember, Commandos are also Heavy class. Furthermore, they move at Heavy class speed with a Heavy class hitbox and scan profile, but a Medium class HP threshold. That gets better at higher levels of the skill and suit, but they cannot afford to use any slots for aught else but HP. Also, they have no equips, if my memory holds, so they need squad support for a hive. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
927
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 04:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Surt gods end wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on...
"True AV" is a railgun turret on a vehicle. Not a handheld weapon. You can't just have vehicles fighting vehicles or it'll end up being 'who can field the most tanks'. There needs to be a powerful handheld Anti-Armor tool with obvious drawbacks, which the Forge and Swarms are meant to fill. They create a nice rock-paper-scissors flow to battle, where vehicles kill infantry, infantry kill AV, and AV kill vehicles. Vehicles can kill vehicles and infantry can kill infantry, and AV can kill AV (with sidearms anyway), so 'tie' situations also end in decent combat. You cannot just relegate the role of 'anti X' to the X in question. You just want one of the easiest crutches ever put into any game so you could solo tanks, instead of letting us duke it out away from infantry. The best counter to a tank should be another tank. This isn't a mmo. and if your talking about a fps... well your not talking about FPS because there isn't one that would do something so stupid. TANK VS TANK... YOU DON'T even believe that! LOL random groups that can't field enough tanks will pay the price. TANKS ARE SUPPORT ROLES. They were never lords of the battlefield. Infantry always were. That's why in Real Life and in FPS games you can pop a tank like it was a balloon.
To compound the issue, the HAVs of DUST seem to be literal Support Tanks rather than Main Battle Tanks. However, we do need some sort of balance between the AV and the HAV,especially if a larger HAV is not forthcoming, as reality is seldom fun. We cannot have HAVs run unopposed on the battlefield, but we cannot see them be destroyed by anyone as easily as a Scout suit (sorry, sore spot I know). They need Infantry support to be effective, but they also need the HP to survive a single AV attacker of the same metalevel for a decent timespan... I'm not good at abstracting timespans so maybe someone else can think of a better timer, but at least 15 seconds or so? |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
927
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 04:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Took abit to read, with all the typos and grammar issues I had to reread several lines, but it seems sensible to a degree. Of course, he didn't really say anything beyond 'I hope Wolfman is smarter than Blam', but I do agree with that sentiment. Personally, I hope the balance to HAVs is a speed nerf, an HP buff, and an AV nade nerf. HAV should be dealt with handily by true AV like a Forge or Swarm, but just dealt with. Forced to retreat. It should take two AV operators to kill a sensible HAV of equal level. To make up for this on the AV side they should get their points for damage back, so they can earn WP without having to kill the HAV. However, those were removed for the same reason Logi heals were severely cut down; booster asshats. So then the issue is WP gaining OBs and not AV or Vehicles, so then I get off topic.
I do apologize for what may seem a rant, but there wasn't enough content in the quote to really comment on...
"True AV" is a railgun turret on a vehicle. Not a handheld weapon. You can't just have vehicles fighting vehicles or it'll end up being 'who can field the most tanks'. There needs to be a powerful handheld Anti-Armor tool with obvious drawbacks, which the Forge and Swarms are meant to fill. They create a nice rock-paper-scissors flow to battle, where vehicles kill infantry, infantry kill AV, and AV kill vehicles. Vehicles can kill vehicles and infantry can kill infantry, and AV can kill AV (with sidearms anyway), so 'tie' situations also end in decent combat. You cannot just relegate the role of 'anti X' to the X in question. Bullshit. You do realize tanks can't capture objectives and fit in most places infantry can? Just because tanks are more effective killing machines doesnt mean they are the best at everything. You treat this game as if the main objective is killing things. Edit: That rock paper scissors idea is flawed, because you don't consider a railgun part of AV, for some reason. Also, why do heavies get to hold large railguns in their hands without making the sacrifices to their size and mobility tanks do?
I find what you say to be very, VERY mentally unsound, but I will attempt to answer in a manner insulting not but your intelligence.
1.Tanks cannot capture objectives, but they can easily stall them or defend them by slaying approaching attackers or defenders. Also, killing is an accepted match end situation in all gamemodes, the sole focus of Ambush matches, and due to the length of Domination it is the more common end for them. Finally, tanks cannot capture objectives, but there are hard caps in place for how many vehicles can be deployed at a time. Furthermore, there are passenger seats on the tank itself, which can ferry troops directly to the interface points for NULL cannons.
2. The rock paper scissors argument is not flawed, as i stated within that DRAW situations still result in satisfying fights. The Railgun is not an AV weapon, it is a vehicle mounted weapon that is effective at attacking other vehicles. In other words, Vehicle on Vehicle, a DRAW situation. It is plenty capable of killing Infantry as well, just as the Forge can be used to kill infantry, but is more effective at vehicles.
3. Heavies do take hits to size and mobility, it is the point of the class and why they are called 'Heavy'. They are slow, larger than any other dropsuit, and without tank level resistances to small arms fire nor a Anti-Infantry tool, sacrifice quite a large amount of survivability. Tanks do not take a hit to mobility, nor survivability, but a triple helping of the Size sacrifice. Only the fastest of Scouts can keep pace with a tank, until their stamina depletes anyway. |
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